Curse

overclocked · Nov 16, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

at least i hope so, its worse then a rit ever at allowing bad teams to drag out matches.

why?

1) better and more constant damage reduction then a Pre-nerf Spam rit with union and shelter.

2) better or as good at healing as, depending on the build, that same rit, with recuperation.

3) harder to spike or pressure out then almost any class. If they have all ther shouts up they just ignore you and keep spaming, because most of your attacks do 0 damage or close to it, with only minor help from a monk. ( this applies to all squishies inside range)

4) impossible to directly counter with out a necro, mass hex build, or extreme e-denial.. yes i know to "counter what hes buffing."Thats proof just that this is insanly op.

5) Last but not least, not at all, not even close, in other words the worst balance problem in GW at the moment, next to unlimited energy, more then a bip with no down side, and not just on 1 char but up to 4 at a time with ease.

we ran it tested it and this post was sparked by how retarded it was. I know a lot of higher end guilds take them along almost all the time,

So i'll just say that this was what I saw, from my tests & matches so far, and I welcome (and expect to get) better info from the rest of you here.

The one spot gimmick for the night fall, New version of the factions launch rit, only much much worse....

Drewfense · Nov 16, 2006, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Maybe chapter 4 will have counters.

olly123 · Nov 16, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

i agee with all ur points but the top bit, about bad teams dragging out matches, u say that, but bad teams do need to win soem of the time, no ones invincable, and ther eusign a build there advsatage, liek the shock war, when thay where first sue, i bet the guild who invented them, usend them the most, and rocked HA/GVG but now every oen uses them and there ar counters out to stop it. jsut think heard enought and anet shoudl have to nerf a paragon cos ur have throguth of a godo counter

Bankai · Nov 16, 2006, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Just let people devise counter-strategies. The game isn't balanced right after release. And skill balances are (a lot of the time) not the only solution.

master_of_puppets · Nov 16, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I wonder when anet will make an epansion class that at first is not overpowered/underpowered/only good for one lame thing. so far theyre 0 for 4.

nightrunner · Nov 17, 2006, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Yeah, Paragons are pretty broken IMO. I just hope it doesn't get nerfed so badly that Paragons aren't even worth bringing, though.

TofuMoe · Nov 17, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

diversion is a pretty good counter. Paragons are very dependant on skill spaming.

Kyune · Nov 17, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Hmm...perhaps it's an issue of the metagame shifting away from paragon counters that were already in use against warriors and the like, now that people have found other "ooh, shiny!" places to turn to.

pah01 · Nov 17, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

It is just Energising Finale thats broken - rethink that and then we can look at the rest of the paragon.

TheZens · Nov 17, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Its so broken its not funny even the counters to it are useless if they have the right build, check out HA and you see it being abused this build....

warrior with wards
warrior with spirits like fertile
paragon with lots of chants/shouts and expel hexes
paragon with shouts/chants
Monk with light of deliverance or another elite
Monk with divert hexes

The most common counter to the build is vocal minority so you have to have hexes but they can remove 3 hexes every 5 seconds with divert hexes but its 10 energy but who cares when they have energizing finale on them. Expel hexes lets you remove 2 hexes every 8 seconds. Basically they can remove 5 hexes stacked on a paragon every 8 seconds, let me tell you its impossible to stack vocal minority even with 4 people hexing like mad. Add in a warrior disrupting offense and killing spirits like roaring winds and it can even with a direct counter build take 5+ minutes to take them down the result is this build holding halls 10+ times in a row even vs the direct counter build.

But the worst thing? Energizing finale and Mending refrain are so broken they not only have amazing effects equivilant to elite skills (compare mending to mending refrain to see why its elite skill worthy) or better in many cases its impossible to remove them unless they end. Even diversion is a poor counter because the duration of mending refrain is permanant so they are just put it on before a match starts. Energizing finale just needs to be applied once every 30 seconds and it isnt a shout or chant so can be used even when the paragon has vocal minority stacked on him giving his monk the vital energy so he can in turn use divert hexes and remove part if not all of the hexes stacked on top.

Its broke and needs urgent fixing even before the balance update is due IMO, im surprised they let it continue so long already.

overclocked · Nov 17, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

this is worse then at one hit kill signet, because this is messing up Wintersday

Clamatius · Nov 17, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheZens

But the worst thing? Energizing finale and Mending refrain are so broken they not only have amazing effects equivilant to elite skills (compare mending to mending refrain to see why its elite skill worthy) or better in many cases its impossible to remove them unless they end.

Energizing finale is clearly too good. Mending refrain is decent but not broken. Comparing skill power levels to mending is pointless - mending is an intentionally bad skill.

qwe4rty · Nov 18, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

I wonder when anet will make an epansion class that at first is not overpowered/underpowered/only good for one lame thing. so far theyre 0 for 4.

Hmm... interesting point. Why don't you add the first 6 base classes as well. Looking over the Game Update notes, it seems to me like they were changed and rebalanced even more then their 4 additional ones we've got from additional chapters.

Wait a minute, do you realize how hard it is to have a 100% perfectly balanced class where the meta is constantly shifting? Things get evolved to and away from...and depending on what the situation is, some things will be better then others.

Like honestly, greatest example is the Elementalist. In GvG, they were pretty much only used for flag running and Heal Party + Aegis spam. The best Elementalist damager I can think of from a long time ago was the Smiter with Ether Renewal, and the damage he was using was monk.

Byron · Nov 18, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I copy/paste-ed this from another thread: Motivation Paragons and Watch Yourself!

I've considered the basic problem of shouts, and they really seem to be broken at the base. Here we have a boost that applies to all within earshot (so normally, 7 people), which is, in many cases, as good as an enchantment. The cost, though, remains low, and the counters to shouts nonexistant. Anet screwed the pooch there, IMO.

Watch yourself is a great example - 4 adrenaline for a 7-8 second duration +20 armor bonus. This normally lands on all six fighting teammates. I can't think of an enchantment spell that can begin to compare to the effectiveness and spammability; let's not forget that enchantments can actually be removed, where shouts are unstoppable.

Charge and the like were fine - they required high spec and, before nightfall, didn't catch the whole agrro bubble. There was no attribute that made shouts energy management. Teams had to consdier bringing shouts to play where now it seems granted.

There needs to be some fundamental counter to shouts (ie, countershouts), IMO. Besides some obscure necro hex, I mean. This is comparable to the problem of rit spirits post-factions(remember displacement, shelter=10 energy?) Diversion can't solve everything.

shardfenix · Nov 18, 2006, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drewfense

Maybe chapter 4 will have counters.

The very point of a balanced game is that the overpowered things already have counters.

Lews · Nov 18, 2006, 10:43 AM // 10:43

HA is a complete joke anyway.

TheZens · Nov 18, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

Energizing finale is clearly too good. Mending refrain is decent but not broken. Comparing skill power levels to mending is pointless - mending is an intentionally bad skill.

Sorry but i think your wrong and heres why:

Mending - Maintained enchantment, has to be maintained essentially by one character a mending bonder if you will it consumes more skills on your bar because you have to take things like blessed signet to make it even worth taking in the first place not to mention you can remove it with enchant strips. So you consume a character and at least 2 skill slots, this is why mending just sucks and everyone laughs when a warrior casts it on himself.

Recuperation - Decent skill can do +4 health regen at higher levels good in some builds but its not permanant costs 25 energy and is easily killed by a warrior or some AoE damage.

Mending refrain - +4 health regen at higher levels cast before match starts much like you would mending, cant be removed unless you shut down enough shouts and chants and stop one ending for 20 seconds which is pretty difficult because chants and shouts are instant and can be used when under KD. Heres the best thing you can take any other chant or shouts you wish just to keep this one skill up you can take damage or defense doesnt matter just make sure you have things ending 2 or 3 times per 20 seconds and mending refrain is up forever.

So i ask you what do you do to counter this skill? you can counter recuperation you can counter mending but its virtually impossible to counter mending refrain short of a diversion which oh its useless since they already have it up before you engage. Now you tell me why given the massive benefits it has over mending and recuperation that its not elite or shouldnt be nerfed in some way? maybe your right maybe its just that shouts, chants and echo's are broken as a whole.

What we need is something like the old Natures Renewal which ended all enchantments when it died lets just make a spirit that ends all chants, shouts and echo's. We need more counters to shouts, chants and echo's vocal minority is fine just needs a better recharge but its useless when they take 2 skills that counter the counter to there build.

furbat · Nov 18, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

It is just Energising Finale thats broken - rethink that and then we can look at the rest of the paragon.

I think energising finale and angelic bond are overpowered. In 4v4 that single ability is nuts and wins matches. There is no way to remove it, it lasts 30 seconds at 12 atribute, for 5 energy 1 sec cast and 5 sec cool down it can easily be kepts on an entire team. It splits damage 50/50 between the paragon and the target... Yeah awesome ability.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 18, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Mending Refrain fufills exactly the same role as Heal Party. However, Heal Party does it better and even if you take Mending Refrain you still have to take Heal Party. I can think of a few situations where one powered Heal Party just isn't enough to save you, but there aren't a lot of them.

Mending Refrain looks amazing if you look at the HPE, but HPE isn't what matters. Vigorous Spirit is incredibly efficent too, and nobody gives a shit because the incidental damage it's designed to deal with is already handled by your E/Mo spamming Party.

TheZens · Nov 19, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

You can divert heal party or remove vigorous spirit because its an enchantment the same cant be said of mending refrain. In GvG i wouldnt take mending refrain your right heal party is more useful but in HA it owns the one build that can counter paragons at the moment hex degen it pretty much cuts the degen by 1/3 we can put on them at any time allowing them to hold on for the full 4 minutes in HoH. The skill is just overpowered mainly because its an echo and its easy to keep up.

We just need more versatile echo, chant and shout counters.